16 thoughts on “Tories on Lisbon”

  1. It’s about all they can do, surely? Short of holding a referendum on a complete exit, which isn’t practical, this is the best option from the point of view of the electorate.

    I really hope Labour doesn’t attack on this too much Tom, the *only* reason we are where we are is because of a broken manifesto promise from your party. And the only reason the Govt wouldn’t call one is obvious: you couldn’t be sure of a Yes vote. To attack the Tories for not fulfilling a Labour promise is rank hypocrisy.

  2. Erm, not sure why you are gloating. Your mob promised us a referendum before the treaty was raitfied, ignored that promise and then Brown crept in at night when he was hoping no-one was watching and signed it. A perfect summary for the wretch really, the only thing he has done of historical note is deny the population a say in an undemocratic treaty.

    New Labour have absolutely no platform on which to criticise the Tories on Europe.

  3. Yeah – what can they do after Brown betrayed our sovereignty? Labour the party of democracy? Don’t make me puke. You’ve destroyed democracy over the last 12 years -we now have the biggest democratic deficit since Magna Carta. You’ve betrayed the people and you’ve betrayed the country.

  4. Sorry, what happened to the vote you promised is on the constitution? P.S. Please don’t pretend the Lisbon treaty and the constitution are not the same thing. Were not idiots.

  5. Mm, referendums are great, aren’t they? I think we should have them on every poorly-understood issue that’s subject of an incessant media campaign of lies and paranoia.

  6. I think there should be a challenge to david Cameron’s Leadership.

    I feel betrayed by him for not calling for a referendum, when he promised he would do.

    Has kamisnki and Zile, persuaded him to be more pro European?

    I think we should be told.

  7. Voters beware Camerons cast iron pledge melts like a bar of chocolate. UKIP will be delighted!

  8. Erm, Gary, hate to break it to you, Dave ain’t in a position to be calling a referendum! Technically you’ve been betrayed by the chap in No 10, no?!

  9. No, I feel betrayed by a Leader who said he would give me one regarding the Lisbon Treaty.

    I think David Cameron should be challenged for the Leadership of the Party for not doing what he said he would do, if he won an election.

    Willaim Hauge should go due to the company he keeps in Europe.

    George Osborne should go because he said he would “keep Labour’s spending plans if Chancellor”. He decries everything Labour have done for our economy!

    I’m not at odds with a Party, or Leader who acts swiftly and decisively for our Country in our best economic interests.

  10. Labour were elected with a manifesto promise on the European Constitution, which, to all intents and purposes (yes I have read it), is the same as the Lisbon Treaty.

    If you think a leader should be challenged for not doing what he said he would, GB would be challenged every month.

    The EU grouping of which the tories are a part do not contain people with any stranger views than those found within Labour’s group.

    Maintaining spending plans and the economy aren’t necessarily synonymous. Furthermore, Darling’s recent announcements on the banks are more or less what Osborne was arguing for, iirc.

    Strangely, I’m not a Tory and not particularly an apologist. Believe what you like about the economy. My own view is that the events that precipitated the current crisis are unique, and no particular blue print for how to handle such an issue existed, so I’m not going to knock anyone for, at least, doing something. I do think we’ve probably tested Keynes to destruction.

    That Labour promised a referendum on the Treaty/Constitution and then reneged on that commitment is beyond debate. The only reasonable explanation for this is that Labour feared the voice of the people, and so circumvented the electorate. The difference between Brown and Cameron is that GB did actually have the authority to call a referendum.

    That Gordon Brown ‘mocked’ Cameron’s decision to not call a referendum on a ratified treaty was really saddening. The hypocrisy at PMQ’s was truly breathtaking.

    Unfortunately, Vox Populi is no longer Vox Dei.

  11. You don’t think that Winston Churchill’s Party has no ‘friends’ that are odd or that Winston would challenge? The Constitution was killed not by the hand of Great Britain, but by fast track Europeans. The Treaty is another issue and the Conservatives have been abandoned by all Democrats with sound backgrounds.

    David Cameron can promise a referendum on any issue he chooses and on any withdrawal strategy he prefers and nothing is stopping him doing that. He rides high in the polls and his MEPs bay for blood.

    He won’t do it though because he is pro European and he believes deep down that Labour is correct on all fronts.

    Quantative Easing has not produced a strong Pound, therfore inflation is not the enemy. Alastair Darling, therfore, can’t face responsible criticism.
    Britain will come out of recession in Dec/Jan and Labour will head to the polls having acted responsibly throughout all imported crises as the Conservative battle each other over values that Winston would be ashamed of.

  12. No, you’re inferring arguments I’m not making. Yes, the Conservatives are now allied with people who have, shall we say, less than pleasant views. But so do Labour. That was my point. To put it into your framework, both parties have friends Winnie would object to.

    To my mind that is the inherent problem with the EU, mainstream Western European parties are allied with broadly sympathetic parties from Eastern European countries, who have, through the complexities of their own national identities and historys, haven’t yet wrestled and resolved issues like gay rights, race relations and other such things. However to describe this as a situation unique to the Tory grouing is facile. Also, just so there is no misunderstanding, I’m not saying that makes it ‘alright’ or justifies such groups.

    Secondly, DC can *call for* a referendum, but not actually *call* one. He’s not in power. I’m not sure why that point is so hard.

    No argument on your last paragraph Gary; as I said in my previous post, there is no definitively right or wrong way to handle such a crisis, and the Govt had to do something. History will probably be the final arbiter on whether the measures employed in this country worked, but I have no doubt that GB and AD acted in what they believed to be the best interests of the country.

    Finally, in none of my posts have I said whether I think the Lisbon Treaty is good or bad for Britain. I just wanted the country to have the referendum it was promised. It’s slightly amusing that you use the phrase ‘Conservatives have been abandoned by all democrats’. This whole saga has been the very opposite of democratic.

    Anyway, I agree that the constitution wasn’t ‘killed by the hand of Great Britain’; the travesty is we didn’t even get to hold the knife.

  13. On the one hand I’m a staunchly pro-EU, pro-England confederalist, someone who thinks that European integration in many areas should advance in its comprehensiveness. On the other hand I’m a democrat who believes that constitutional changes need popular consent.

    Would I have had 27 referenda at the state level or just one at the confederal level? It doesn’t matter. The debate though has been so poisoned by misrepresentation – mostly but not entirely on the Europhobe side – that asking the public to make an informed decision seems impossible.

    Perhaps we deserve the fruit of our ignorance?

  14. Mr Watson,

    To be honest, I am currently GLAD we are in Europe. It’s the only thing that seems to protect us from the worst excesses of the completely ROTTEN administration we’ve had to endure for the past twelve miserable years. I thought the Tories were bad at the time they ruled us, but they now seem like pussycats to me, on reflection and in comparison. I even voted NL the first time around. Not this time though, I assure you.

    At least whilst we are in Europe we still have the freedom to leave the country. Something I’ve thought about doing quite often! Imagine what it would be like, if we were out of Europe, isolated with CommieStasi “New Labour” still in charge, having to apply for an “exit visa” and justifying to the new politbureau why we wanted to go abroad..

    Roll on the election, that’s all I can say. Hopefully we will get some our civil rights restored WHEN the tories resume power but I won’t be holding my breath.

    But it really is a bit rich going on about the Tories and European referenda when you lot did exactly the same as they intend to do. Save that YOU lot were the ones who’ve tied their hands behind their backs unless I am very much mistaken.

    I sometimes wonder if New Labour really know how completely and utterely despised they seem to be nowadays, by the majority of the public ?

    Check out some responses in newspapers, and “have your say” forums on the BBC to see what people really think.

  15. Considering that the Euro zone Countries are now out of recession, and that all Conservatives believe that Gordon Brown has ruined this Country, wouldn’t it be better for us to join all of those excellent Prime Minister’s and Presidents of Europe by joining them and their successful monetary course?

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